Just as Blackdragon predicts in his book The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual1, Ukrainian forced The Talk just at the 3 month mark of our little amorous affair.
On our way to meet Magnum for a double date, she tells me that she’s nervous because she never did the whole American boyfriend thing where she meets his friend. This is the first time she used that ill-fated word “boyfriend” in my presence. And I found it strange that it was important for her to categorize me according to my country of birth.
“How shallow you are, Ukrainian!” I wanted to shout, just before I managed to suppress my accusation in the name of congeniality. We are off to meet friends; no need for a quarrel now!
Nonetheless, the writing was on the wall. I needed to give her The Talk.
The next morning she prepares a traditional cheese dish for our late breakfast. What were supposed to be solid discs of cheese ended up as something like fried feta and raisins. Tasty to me, but subpar according to her expectations. So while I sip coffee and read Bulgakov2, she makes Americuhn style pancakes for which we use the lightly sweetened, feta-like cheese as a topping. Good start to the day, but alas I couldn’t fully enjoy it. I felt heavy knowing that the delivery of The Talk soon cometh. I couldn’t quite be in the moment with her. And, despite doing my best to kill my inner Nice Guy, I felt guilty that I could not give her the Breeze experience she has since come to enjoy and appreciate.
Pushing through my dispirited emotions after breaking fast, I looked up details for our planned ice skating outing only to find that, due to COVID government protection babysitting, rink time had to be reserved in advance and that space for the day was all sold out. With ice skating, pushing back The Talk for a week would have been fairly trivial as we would be physically occupied for the rest of the day before saying our goodbyes. Not any longer. The new plan was to roam the Brooklyn streets. Preparing for our excursion, a sinking feeling overcame me…The Talk time may very well be accelerated forward to today.
For the next few hours, during which we cleaned up the kitchen, headed down to Brooklyn and walked through its charming, little streets, most of our conversation was bland, boring and serious. There wasn’t much fun in it. Noticing this, I spiked when I was reminded to do so, but overall it was mechanical rather than the Breeze I typically offer. It was mundane and watered down. I don’t know if it was conscious or subconscious, but I was distant towards her. In retrospect, I felt the need to give her a push, to make it apparent that I’m not a boyfriend but without saying that I’m not a boyfriend. How can I make clear what I don’t want to make explicit? My mind, whether right or wrong, decided to do so by showing her I’m not the sort of material good boyfriends are made of, that I can be cold and boring just as I can be warm and charming.
I couldn’t tell you if this was a good strategy, though it did precipitate The Talk at the end of dinner in a bar near Dumbo. Often times, we talk about traveling, and here she noted that whenever we talk about future traveling I tend to speak about trips separate from her (for example, Montreal with V is still in the works), yet when she mentions a trip she does so with the expectation that I would join her. “Why is that?” she asked. This is about as good of a red carpet I’ll ever get for The Talk. I wobbled my words a bit before gathering my thoughts then decisively diving into the topic.
Now, this will be the first time I give The Talk. It never occurred to me in the past to be direct about non-monogamy. That is, not until I read Red Quest’s free book on sex clubs and non-monogamy. And more recently, Blackdragon’s book on Open Relationships. In the latter, Blackdragon lays out, down to every last microscopic detail, how to give The Talk. The information here, and regarding Soft Nexts, are invaluable tools to be had in a player’s kit. Solid, technical book in my opinion. At the core of it all is to hold your frame like it is all your worth. Much of my preparation for The Talk came from that book.
I started by telling her what I like about her and why I enjoy spending time with her. It was all true. No embellishment, no hard sell, no lies. I didn’t overdo it; it was short and sweet. I didn’t appeal to her emotions at all here. Next I went on to explain that long-term, serious relationships and monogamy are not in my nature. It would be a lie to pretend it is. She briefly interrupted to say “I notice that you look at other girls. I see it all the time. And I see you texting even though you told me that you don’t like texting.” This is good news; it means I have been subtly setting the correct frame and giving off the right signals to her. What needs to be noted is that there’s a warm side to the coin to contrast the coldness on which she commented. For example, on multiple occasions she would say things like “I wish I saw you more often,”, “I like how I feel when I’m with you,”, “aww that’s sweet of you.” Hearing the latter list of praise constantly worried me that I misled her. However, now hearing that she thinks I’m player validates my behavior. I mixed the sweet with the sour. Here again, Blackdragon’s book goes into detail on how to imply non-monogamy without being a dick about it before ever getting into The Talk. Hearing the term “non-monogamy” shouldn’t be a surprise to her; it should simply be turning the implicit explicit.
Regular readers may be wondering about the texting witnessed by Ukrainian–which I don’t do often–since I still don’t have leads. Between you and I, it was probably me complaining to Mr. V or Midwest about exactly that scarcity!
I wanted to deliver the point on non-monogamy as smoothly and as swiftly as possible, though I struggled a bit to get the words across and needlessly belabored the topic more than I should have. The second time I mentioned it, she said “that’s fine, I understand that.” In silence I thought to myself “Holy shit! Red Quest and Blackdragon don’t lie! Girls are cool with this player lifestyle.” Immediately afterwords she bursted the bubble she created for me by continuing, “but my time is an investment. Spending time with you is an investment. And I don’t want to waste that time.” I didn’t press her for details; why kick a hornet’s nest?
The full conversation took place over 15 minutes, starting a few minutes after we paid for dinner while sitting around. She never reacted poorly; no tears, no raised voices, no grievances, no regret, no big emotional release. She was as neutral as I was. As we stood up to leave the restaurant bar, she said “I know what I’m worth.” I said nothing, not understanding what the conclusion of The Talk was. I now believe she was venting while processing my perspective by saying that. Again, why kick the hornet’s nest by asking her to make explicit the meaning of a negative statement? There’s no value in drawing verbal commitment to emotions that work against you–this isn’t a Game principle, it’s a general social skill.
Before this all came up, before we paid for dinner, before the mini interrogation, I told her I would walk to her to the grocery store where I would separately take a train back to mine. This plan remained unaltered despite the lack of confirmation one would expect once we stood up. As we walked the cold streets of New York City, our conversation went back to normal and we spoke about movies while I navigated us towards our destination. It was a 20 minute walk, after 10 of which she reached for my hand. I took it. Outside the grocery, we said our goodbyes with a hug and quick kiss.
Never having previously issued The Talk, it kind of felt like my first hundred Daygame approaches where I didn’t know the right words to say but I knew what the model says I should say. I put my trust in Blackdragon’s model; and more so because I hold conviction in his strategy of honesty. I like that. And indeed, the truth did set me free.
In those last 10 or so minutes with Ukrainian, I returned to my normal Breezy self. Free from the burden of The Talk and its uncertainty, I was able to give back light-hearted, flirty conversation to her. It wasn’t conscious Game at this point, if Game at all. It was simply enjoying the moment and spiking the energy. We’ve since exchanged a few fun texts, and though it appears The Talk was a success, I expect one last bit of business.
In the Open Relationship Manual, BD writes that it’s not uncommon for a girl to come back with a list of rules after accepting the terms of The Talk. Most of these, he explains, are trivial and minor. Accept them and allow her to save face. Others are ridiculous and are to be dismissed. As an extreme example, a rule prohibiting dating other girls is quite contrary to the non-monogamous principle and is to be rejected with the same insouciance that it was conjured.
Let’s see if his premonition will come true.
And of course, she’s in her right to change her mind at any moment. It may very well be that next week rolls around and Ukrainian decides that sharing is not, in fact, caring, and that she will have no part in my delinquent aspirations. I accept that. Freedom isn’t free.
Lastly, I extend me gratitude to Magnum and Mr. V for helping me get to this point in my life. You gentleman lead by example.
- Thanks to Yoylo for the book recommendation.
- She got me The Master and Margarita for my birthday a few weeks ago. This novel is incredible on multiple levels.
Yo Breeze. Great post. Well written, great topic, very personal.
I am going to yell at you, not because I have any authority to do so… But because being direct and cranky is my nature.
Please forgive me.
> Ukrainian forced The Talk
Did she, though? Are you sure it was her that needed it?
First off — fuck what Blackdragon says. By that I mean, you’ll do what you think is right, but there are a lot of ways to “be artful” with women, and his path may or may not be one of them.
> more so because I hold conviction in his strategy of honesty
Honesty… Pfffft. The emphasis on “honesty” is for children. I mean that. I am not suggesting the opposite of honesty…
But “always be honest” is a cope. It’s (very, very) often an excuse to avoid tension. If we want to play complicated Games, we have to create a capacity to hold heavy tension.
In Game, Tension > “honesty”
I am judgey here (as always), but because I want to swing away, let’s assume this is general advice – not specific to you.
Very often guys want the Talk (or want to confess their feelings) because they can’t manage their tension. And the “honesty” becomes a “backwards rationalization” for wanting to escape tension or escape a feeling of responsibility… By blurting out “the status” things.
HER: What are we?
PLAYER: Are you trying to define the relationship with me?
PLAYER: Is this “The Talk?”
Smile… Hug her… and change tht topic. An entire school of Players make fun of anyone that wants to have “the Talk.” I happen to be in that school.
It is unneccessary… And mostly futile… As the status of a rel is constantly changing… Because the rel is all based on FEELINGS, not “words.”
There are other ways of dancing…
Giving a girl some talk where you say “I am going to see other girls” is one way to manage expectations, but it is particularly crude and unskillful IMAO.
I happen to think it is rude and insulting, as well. Of course you’re a Player. She remembers the pickup/seduction. We need to run our status in her face? Quality girls will see that as crude. Artless.
I will see your Black Dragon and raise you with some Lance Mason.
Lance would say: “A girl is always trying to figure out: ‘How close should I get to him?'”
THIS ^ kicks the shit out of anything BD ever said.
Lance is right. And she is learning in subtle, non-verbal ways, all the time. Most communication in the Secret Society is non-verbal. Aim for that standard.
So, yeah. The way you treat her. The level of your attention. Etc.
But MOST OF ALL: How much time do you give her? How much absence?
Girls get it. 1X per week? That is not A BF. But if you’re seeing her 3X/week (or even constantly sending “maintenance texts”), you ARE her “BF” and the talk is secondary.
The Talk is noise. Quality/Quantity of attn is signal. Tell her that… If you need to.
To make this personal: I never ever talk about other girls (super crude). (I never look around, either, when I am on a date – that is low quality attn, it’s rude). I tell girls “It’s been a long time since I’ve been anyone’s BF… But I am your Lover.” And from there… I use TIME TOGETHER to set boundaries on how close she gets to me.
I respect you and I know you will find your own path. I happen to think The Talk is a completely amateur way to deal with women. I think guys follow each other into it, as they can’t handle the endless “maybe” of women and romance and their own insecurities, and because they have no other examples.
You will do as you like. There is a lot of experimenting to be done. But I would look past this “sledgehammer honesty” concept… No, you never have to have The Talk.
The Talk is just another test.
BFs have The Talk. Players don’t need to.
Only the most crude, transactional girls truly embrace that “logical”, contractual, verbal negotiations. The rest… Read your subtext, and make whatever adjustments to get closer/father away from you. It is that simple.
She wants more. Or she wants less. That is the context.
Final comment here: Controlling tht amount of TIME you give here is so “pro,” because you can still go ALL IN when you’re with her… As long as you set (non verbal) boundaries as well, by establishing enough distance that you cannot possibly be confused with a “BF.”
Girls never think I am their BF. And I never have The Talk.
I learned this ^ from Lance too. If you need some Lance materials… msg me, I’ll set you up.
In my experience chicks will want the Talk, and it can be artfully avoided once or twice… and then she will get angry, or force it, or disappear. IMO having the Talk, when it’s time, is better than not.
A girl can be retained far longer if she has some structure to the relationship, than if she does not.
I like making her my “girlfriend…” and then dating other girls/couples with her, or going to sex clubs, if they’re open. Best of both worlds.
One thing a girl may do, if she accepts the non-monogamy frame, is go fuck another guy.
I’ve found embracing “the Talk” when it’s time, usually 8 – 12 weeks, is better than avoiding it.
> In my experience chicks will want the Talk, and it can be artfully avoided once or twice… and then she will get angry, or force it, or disappear
Clarity is real, it’s needed. The Talk can lead to clarity, so it’s not always a “test.”
If she asks my age 2X in a row, I answer. It would be avoidant not to. If she asks about the rel 2X in a row… I talk at it sideways, not to avoid it, but to stay out of yes/no status of BF… Again, I introduce “Lover,” and I have yet to have a girl (after sex) reject that.
> A girl can be retained far longer if she has some structure to the relationship
Absolutely. 100% yes to “add structure.” We always add structure. Key lesson.
I just don’t say “BF,” and I don’t say “fuck buddies.” I am neither status… I say “Lover,” and then lead her into that relationship (which is, in fact, neither BF nor IDGAF “fuck buddies” status).
If she pushes for marriage.. then I give her a hard no. Up until then…
What she wants to feel is secure IN THAT MOMENT. She doesn’t really want a “long term strategy session.” So, The Talk is a bandaid for feeling insecure… Or a lack of presence on her part.
Focus on making her FEEL secure, not “making rel promises.” Or if she is secure (now), remind her of that. That is my focus.
This is another reason I never bring up other girls… That forces insecurity… Which forces bandaids of “The Talk” etc.
> I’m stingy with compliments
— Breeze
Common POV, but you could out grow this. “Stingy” is not ideal – it’s a “low vibe” solution. You’re trying to stay BALANCED (good), by WITHHOLDING (low vibe). But that will create need/insecurity… You can balance in other ways.
I put this all together to “chunk up” to the focus on her sense of security/structure/presence.
When she feels secure/nurtured, she isn’t “grasping” at the future (=anxious).
So there is an opportunity to double down on security/structure to get her present, blooming now… Not scrambling to survive in the future.
> I like making her my “girlfriend…” and then dating other girls/couples with her, or going to sex clubs, if they’re open. Best of both worlds.
I love this about your story. And I 100% acknowledge it for you… And for Yoylo, and a tiny fraction of men (Nathan/etc)… For everyone else is poison advice.
Again, I am not suggestion monogamy… But verbally “open” requires unusual psych in a girl, whereas “Secret Society” is much more common.easiet to digest.
Most guys talking verbal non mongamy, “in your face” non monogamy, flagrant non monogamy … Are LARPing, and/or are about to destroy their rel as they try to wear a role that does not fit them or their girl.
@Breeze… You may end up w/ Request/Nathan/Yoylo. It may be so. But it is very unlikely, even for Players. I get it, but it doesn’t fit me. I am non monogamous, but I don’t ask the girls to openly digest that.
I am thinking of a certain guy we both know on Twitter. He bought into the LARPy story we hear in our space… And tried to drop this into his rel w/ a new girl this Summer… And promptly lost her. He never admitted that, but the story was there to see. He hurt her, he hurt himself… He was LARPING, and it cost him. I wish he would have told the full story, so more guys would see this is rarely a good fit.
The thing I want to say is NON VERBAL NON MONOGAMY is a CHOICE, not a “progression.” It is a rare fit, not an evolution or a “higher level.” That is my POV. And a man is not “less advanced” by staying in Secret Society circles of “don’t ask, don’t tell” non monogamy. SS is a big pond, verbal non monogamy is a very small pond. You cut off options by insisting the non monogamy is explicit.
I love RedQuest. I love Yoylo. Two of my fav men in the space. But they are high in a particular trait of “openness” and that make them (and the girls they successful run with) RARE.
Most people are less “open” and will burn everything down LARPing in that world.
>But verbally “open” requires unusual psych in a girl, whereas “Secret Society” is much more common. easiet to digest.
So, with being “verbally open…” let me clarify a little. I try to prep the girl properly, if that makes sense. Get her to read some of the pro-slut books, if she’s that type of girl. And, preferably BEFORE we get to “the Talk,” we go to a sex club or party, together. Then it’s something we’re already doing, together, and we aren’t talking about whether we are formally “in an open relationship.” It develops organically. The status doesn’t exactly need a super verbal conversation. It’s embedded in the talk about her sexual fantasies, it’s embedded in the talk about what to expect at the sex club. Usually I encourage girls not to do “full swap” the first time we go together. That’s too much for a lot of girls, and I tell them we can explore that later on, if she wants to (= future projection).
So… it’s a little less direct, less “nuclear” style, most of the time. Sometimes I will go direct and quickly, if the girl is super sexual, if the girl is upfront about fantasies, that kind of thing. Or if I am overscheduled and need to filter/select girls quickly. This sort of approach and conversation can be very polarizing. Some girls are very sexual and want to be able to express and explore that, and if I go nuclear, I’ll uncover them quickly. But the majority of girls are turned off by this approach. Some are intrigued, because it’s very different, and I read as a nerd, so when they hear me… they may want to hear a lot more.
I have lost girls over this. That’s fine. Some girls really want monogamy and a steady boyfriend, a husband, etc. Those girls, if they are strong, smart, and able to compromise, find that guy. Most often, the smart girls compromise a bit on looks and raw sex appeal, in return for a guy who is going to be a good partner and dad.
Early in the book, I write, “I have never said (and will never say) that ‘non-monogamy is for everyone’ or ‘group sex is great for everyone.’ It’s not and it’s not.” Then I go to say, “a guy should consider some of these strategies as a way of achieving better output for less work while also retaining the girl better.” A guy may consider these powers and reject them. A guy may read about them, be curious about them, and not want to try them for himself.
I do think more guys should be doing this than are doing this, and I don’t know where Breeze falls. That’s for him to find out.
The Talk was motivated by resetting expectations in this case. I kept it implicit for as long as I could manage: I see her once a week, I’m stingy with compliments, I don’t whisper sweet nothing’s into her ear. At the same time I make efforts to treat her well. Hence her having said “I like how I feel when I’m with you.”
>Smile… Hug her… and change tht topic.
This is the approach I took until know, it held off the “boyfriend” comment for about 3 months.
>“It’s been a long time since I’ve been anyone’s BF… But I am your Lover.”
I like this. This is a nice, quick way to re-align on expectations. I’ll be adding it to my toolkit.
I’ll send a DM to follow up with the Lance Mason material.
> it held off the “boyfriend” comment for about 3 months.
In my experience, as time goes on… She is less likely to think a talk is sensible/helpful.
If she is unhappy, she implodes the rel…
Miss Thick straight up said “I know you don’t want more.” She bailed. I miss her, she was wonderful… But she was right. Miss Happy may have just disappeared on me… Perhaps for the same reason.
…
I often think girls (guys too) “push for the words” when they know the answer… But just don’t like the answer. This happens to me in breakups, where they want “more words”… as of that would change anything.
The FEELINGS are clear. The words/contracts/promises are secondary.
I’ll be curious to see how this plays out. I’ve had much better success just telling women right off the bat that I’m dating other women and plan to continue dating other women. That way the only time she wants to “Talk” is if she makes the decision to pursue monogamy with another dude, which is fine.
At that point, because I was honest and upfront the whole time, I can honestly tell her I hope she finds what she has now decided she’s looking for, and let her go gracefully, leaving the door open if she changes her mind back.
As an extra bonus, I sleep great.
>I’ve had much better success just telling women right off the bat that I’m dating other women and plan to continue dating other women.
I’ve noticed on Twitter more and more articles discussing the acceptance of polygamy. Perhaps being upfront about non-monogamy isn’t as shocking as it once was, but I’d rather not leave money on the table. Also, to semi-quote Yoylo, in moderns times it’s to be expected that we’re all dating around at the start of a relationship. Non-monogamy is implicit from the start.
>As an extra bonus, I sleep great.
Nothing beats a good night’s sleep!
>”This is the first time she used that ill-fated word ‘boyfriend’ in my presence. And I found it strange that it was important for her to categorize me according to my country of birth.”
In college, I remember something analogous happening with a girl I was banging: we were at an invent, and one of her friends (really, a bitchy acquittance…) referred to her as “my girlfriend.” I didn’t know how to play it and didn’t correct the friend. Fortunately, summer eventually intervened and allowed me to chase new girls more easily.
>”The next morning she prepares a traditional cheese dish for our late breakfast”
Good, good.
I could never figure out Master & Margarita, though. It seems weirdly paced and random to me.
>”That is, not until I read Red Quest’s free book on sex clubs and non-monogamy”
That, is a free book on sex clubs and non-monogamy and embracing the dark side. You gain a tremendous power, at the cost of a portion of your soul / normal social relations. A worthwhile exchange in my view. Darth Vader is the real hero.
Overall, I hope you’re ready for what she might pull next: fucking another guy. “He wants non-monogamy? Okay, I am going to do that.”
Personally I’d inquire if she wants to set up a Feeld profile with me, but I am a sex maniac.
Great post & story.
>I didn’t know how to play it and didn’t correct the friend.
For the last week or two, she had been talking sweetly to me, so I can’t say I didn’t expect it but I wasn’t prepared to debunk the boyfriend comment either. I do like Nash’s line here, where he replaces “boyfriend” with “lover”.
>I could never figure out Master & Margarita, though. It seems weirdly paced and random to me.
More than half the book is random. Devil knows how he came up with the material! I was taken by his writing style; it was perfectly informal, yet clean. The chaos he builds for most the book comes to a nicely bow-tied end. Fantastic sense of humor, plenty of historical and biblical references (for which I needed the footnotes to follow) and interesting observations about the Soviet Union in the 30’s.
>You gain a tremendous power, at the cost of a portion of your soul / normal social relations.
The world looks different. I haven’t jumped into the sex club world, but I do see social relationships and interactions more clearly; I can see social power plays better, I can see politics, I can see polite vs genuine behavior, and most importantly I can tell when a girl is flirting with me–a simple skill that would have served me well in college!
Good stuff. Looking forward to seeing how the story unfolds…
I recently had a similar talk with the girl I’m seeing. I haven’t written about recent happenings, but she’s warming up to the idea.
Keep doing your thing.
Cool, I’ll look out for the blog post.
I guess investing time into you didn’t pay out so far if she brought it up. Maybe you have shitty ROI?
I could not resist the urge to comment on a comment. Bravo.
>an excuse to avoid tension. If we want to play complicated Games, we have to create a capacity to hold heavy tension.
That is what separates men in different categories. You can’t (hard) harem around if you can’t take 10 times as tension & maybes as Avg. Joe
Honesty is propaganda, and girls don’t buy it. Don’t lie to them, but be selective about what you show and share.
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